“ALF to vegan death threats”?

ALF_beaglesScare-mongering against radical animal rights and environmental activists has become so easy that it is hard for some folks to resist joining the attacks. POM Wonderful, the juice company, tried to label lawful protesters as part of the Animal Liberation Front. Groups like the Center for Consumer Freedom have warned of “violence” when PETA moved to DC. The Humane Society of the United States went out of its way to blame underground groups for an arson, when the police had no evidence linking the crime to them. The list, unfortunately, goes on and on. Perhaps the most absurd addition to the list to date comes from within the animal rights movement.

Gary Francione, a law professor at Rutgers, and Steve Best, a philosophy professor at the University of Texas–El Paso, have been going back and forth about animal rights issues, specifically the use of direct action. It almost led to a debate (which looks like Francione pulled out of) and has currently turned into a shining example of all that a post-newspaper Internet future heralds: trash talking, trash talking and more trash talking. It came to a head recently when Adam Kochanowicz warned of “ALF to vegan death threats” after receiving a message from Gary Francione that said:

I have received several messages from people informing me that they have received threats and/or violent communications because they have posted messages in support of non-violence or critical of the views of Steve Best.

If you feel threatened, you should go to the appropriate authorities.

You might want to go through your FB list. The administrators of “Go Vegan or Die,” which promotes violence (including personal violence) and the harassment of those who promote non-violence, are: Mary Xanthos, Karen Challenges, Ward Chanley, Kerri Millam, Holly Donna Balaclava, Gina Maltese, and Camile Marino. People communicate with Steve Best at their own risk as he distributes emails to those whom he knows will respond with threats of violence.

If you are a member of this group or otherwise support violence, please respect my wishes and leave this site.

This continues to get circulated around on blogs and Facebook pages, so I think it’s important to clear up a few things. These are the same types of smear tactics being used by animal industries against activists as “terrorists.” Specifically:

  1. Linking above-ground individuals who ideologically support direct action with underground activists who carry out direct action. Regardless of how you feel about people who support illegal tactics, warning people to communicate with a professor of philosophy “at their own risk” because he “distributes emails to those whom he knows will respond with threats of violence” is idiotic. It’s a heavy accusation, and one that, in this political climate, is surely not taken lightly by the FBI.
  2. Singling people out by name as the “leaders” because of their ideology or the alleged actions of those involved with them. Francione lists individuals by name not because of anything they have done, but because of a Facebook group that promotes ideas he disagrees with.
  3. Labeling the ALF as “violent” or prepared to become violent. There has not been a single act of physical violence in the history of the U.S. animal rights movement. To think that the Animal Liberation Front or any underground animal rights activists would choose to break that history and make their first target a VEGAN is pretty laughable and egotistical. But with scare-mongering like this, it doesn’t matter how laughable it is. It is intended to end a debate by labeling people as “violent.”

Francione has made it a point–like many academics, Steve Best included–to single out people he ideologically opposes and attack their positions. At times, he has done so pretty shamelessly. For instance, when Austrian activists were rounded up and detained without charges, Francione went out of his way to attack the “welfarist” campaigns of the activists arrested.

Here’s the thing: everyone involved can continue the name-calling and chest puffing and other nonsense that has come from all sides in this debate as much as they like. The vast majority of people, including activists, probably will not pay much attention.

But sweeping, serious allegations of violence, along with naming names and encouraging people to contact law enforcement, only serves to follow in the footsteps of industry groups that have turned activists into the “number one domestic terrorism threat.”

What do you think?

Related posts:

  • I guess one of my main problems with militant direct action is this question of who exactly is our enemy?

    Mark, the authors of that second article stated that it is the institutional animal exploiters, the "capitalist oppressors", who are the murderers and torturers.
    Although I agree with that in one sense, I think that if anyone should be condemned for abusing animals, it should be, first and foremost, our own parents and siblings, not KFC and Burger King. After all, as consumers, our loved ones are responsible for the existence of the fast food restaurants and the cosmetics testing laboratories (at least mine are), not some conspiring gang of CEO sadists.
    The consumer alone pays the salaries of the chicken farmer and the electricity bills of the slaughter house. So why don't we firebomb our mothers' cars, or abusively intimidate our little cousins on a Saturday afternoon?
    After all, our loved ones are the sole reason that these institutions of abuse exist in the first place, no?

    Attacking a McDonalds restaurant simply scares away the very people who we need to draw in. Folks see it as a deranged attack on a normal, morally acceptable, restaurant; an attack on something which they themselves actively participate in. It just doesn't make any sense to me to do this; to alienate people from our cause, thus diminishing the potential for incremental progress towards our goal, abolition.

    I know non-violent vegan education is slow, and is devoid of all the fire-in-your-veins rhetoric about "revolutionary struggles" against colossal enemies but I don't see an alternative which is, in any way, more effective (or less ineffective), or more practical.

    Lastly, I think we should all remember that this animal "rights" movement, this motley crew of ideologies, is still in its infancy.
    The term Vegan is, what, 65 years old?.. and Francione's beliefs are around 20 years old at most? Personally, I think we need to give vegan education at least a century before we even consider dismissing it out of hand and baselessly defaming Francione's character as has been done repeatedly on the comments section of this page.

    I need to know this: how will militant direct action bring about, in the long run, the abolition of animal exploitation? How will it not just prolong the acceptance of animal use in society?
  • Mark
    Joseph, I was convinced by Gary Francione's views as well for a while. I still fully support his ideas of how and why animals have rights, that is, sentience, and Francione goes into long, deep discussion on the issues that arise from that argument. His arguments are very sound in WHY animals should not be used by humans. The only point on which I believe he is wrong though, is HOW we promote those rights. And in the end, vegan education is a feeble attempt to end all animal exploitation. Read through the comments here, and you'll answer your own questions. Read these two essays: http://www.vgt.at/publikationen/texte/artikel/2...

    http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy...
    Those two incredibly logical arguments should demonstrate why abolitionism through vegan education isn't practical.
    In the end, hey, I have no interest in chucking a fire bomb under a vacant truck, but it doesn't mean I'm against it. I can understand how violence is a powerful tool. Every rights movement in history has had violence begetting violence, we can't expect the animal rights movement to be any different. While vegan education is certainly a very strong aspect of animal rights, if we don't couple it or team it up with violence, protests and yes, welfarism, then the minuscule population of the world that does decide to turn vegan will never be enough to overturn the determined, profit-blinded animal industry.
  • Sam
    I agree with Joseph. I've read Francione's books and essays. I've listened to his lectures from his site. It makes perfect sense to me. It's not to say that I'm taking sides on this "threat" incident. I don't know enough about it to comment. But, I can say that I appreciate all my fellow vegan activists. We are all trying to find our way in this absolutely insane and gruesome world. I am so grateful to know that there are others who are aware of the animal holocaust happening now, and are willing to try to stop it. I'm just not sure how direct action fits into the solution at this point. But, I do know that vegan education is a must.
  • I support Gary Francione completely.
    I used to support Direct Action wholeheartedly but not anymore. I do still think though that those efforts which directly save the lives of animals are worthy of respect, despite their long term ineffectiveness and maybe counter-productiveness. This form of DA recognises the sanctity of individual life.

    However, destructive Direct Action is one the most self defeating activities in the Animal Rights movement.
    Gluing locks, burning cars and smashing windows has no incremental effect whatsoever in helping animals.

    Why?

    Because it targets the supply instead of the demand; its like hitting at the branches instead of striking at the roots.

    Institutional animal abusers are responding to the demands of the real enemy, ourselves, the consumer. They are a reaction to, not the source of the problem.
    The only way that we are going to bring about respect for the lives of animals is by converting omnivores, by using calm logic; by stating in a straightforward manner why consuming animal products is wrong.

    Destructive DA does not resonate with 99.9% of people because they cannot understand the context of the attacks. How are we supposed to win the hearts and minds of people when we come across as a group of crazy, emotional extremists who blatantly target honest farmers and their homes?

    And if you think to yourself, 'this isn't about winning hearts and minds, this is about saving the animals' then your wrong. Its about both. But we can only do the second by doing the first; not the other way around.
    What do you "animal liberationists" believe? That by attacking the supply, you are going to affect the demand? Are you serious? How does capitalism work? As long as there is a demand, there will always be somebody who will be willing to supply that demand.

    All you are doing by attacking the property of human animals is marginalising yourselves and your issues. It allows the media and government to dismiss a pure and irreproachable social movement as the reserve of a crazed, anti-human few.

    The only way that we are going to affect real change is by participating in non-violent, vegan education.
    DA is a short term fix that doesn't work. It took me a few years to wake up and realise that but now that I have, it all seems so clear. The same cannot be said about ALF activism.
  • USB_dongle
    Don't let nitwits like Gary F. or Bob Torres or beforewisdom put you off. They're pretentious knobs. Ignore their preening.
  • Judith
    He is lying!!!!!!No death threats!
    He has slandered people....
  • @Lin#108

    Actually, that was not exactly the problem I had. When I clicked on "submit" I got nothing. I did NOT get "the usual 'your comment is awaiting approval' type message." When I tried to resubmit that same comment I was led to a blue WordPress page telling me that this comment is a duplicate of what I have already submitted. This is crazy because the comment never went true in the first place.

    @ Will Potter #109

    Thanks, I new something odd was going on. I would spent fifteen minutes writing a comment and then almost every time I had to rewrite it several times in order to see it posted albeit with the "waiting for moderation approval" message.

    The question now is why are some comments from me and Sarah going into spam and what can we do here to prevent this?
  • Lin
    Sarah (my girlfriend) posted a comment to this topic last week, but had the same problem you're describing...when she hit "submit", it gave her the usual "your comment is awaiting approval" type message, and then when the new comments went through, hers wasn't there. Weird.
  • Lin: I just searched the spam folder and found Sarah's.

    Ante Bozanich: If found comments from you as well in the spam folder.

    I'm not sure why they went into spam. I did a quick scan of recent comments filtered into spam, and didn't see any others (there are hundreds added every day, though, so I might be missing some).
  • Reply to Will Potter#102

    Well, then, if you're fallowing what I'm saying, for some reason I am having problem submitting some comments on your blog (several of them so far). I've cleared Firefox history. I've even tried using a different email and entered a different website. The only thing I haven't tried yet is using a different browser. I'll try that next.

    Anyway, I like your blog. I've been following it for a long time. I've decided to leave some comments but, sorry, it's going to be difficult if I can't solve the problem I'm having. This is why I was asking if anyone else has experienced this while commenting here or elsewhere.
  • Besides VHMET, I've also mentioned FREEGANISM. And, since there seems to be also a lot misunderstanding of what this is all about, here is one more link here from NYC - a website with information on freeganism.

    http://freegan.info/

    For me very important aspect regarding freeganism is that it is the beginning of the experimentation with what communities based on concerns for others, cooperation, sharing, equality, freedom awareness and creativity may be like as opposed to present social norms which are grounded in capitalism — competition, greed, exploitation and conformity — ultimately leading to destruction of life on our planet.
  • Will, I know comments are held for moderation like several of my comments were but that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about not being able to submit a comment at all. Did you get any comments from me which had to be rejected since I've tried posting several comments several times and I couldn't submit them. When a comment is submitted, I first get a display of it stating on the top that it's waiting for moderation but with these submissions I got nothing.
  • I have approved all comments you have submitted. There are no comments awaiting moderation.
  • Besides VHMET, I've also mentioned FREEGANISM. And, since there seems to be also a lot misunderstanding of what this is all about, here is one more link here from NYC - a website with information on freeganism.

    http://freegan.info/

    For me very important aspect regarding freeganism is that it is the beginning of the experimentation with what communities based on concerns for others, cooperation, sharing, equality, freedom awareness and creativity may be like as opposed to present social norms which are grounded in capitalism — competition, greed, exploitation and conformity — ultimately leading to destruction of life on our planet.


    Patrick@91,

    I've also had a similar negative experience with Francione and his followers. But It had helped me look elsewhere to formulate and galvanize my own views tapping into many different sources and perspectives. Hero-worship can be dangerous and loyalty can rob you of freedom.

    Pluralism, alliance and experimentation instead of this single issue, one track or whatever you want to call Francione's simplistic, insular, sterile doctrine. Putting all eggs in one basket is usually not a very good idea, especially when torture and murder of billions of domesticated and non-domesticated nonhumans are at stake. Moreover, even if only educating masses about veganism does bring domesticated nonhuman animals to an extinction and their holocaust to an end, it will not do much for the billions of wild nonhumans and their holocaust if the expansion and proliferation of homo rapiens and destruction of wild habitat continues.

    Beforewisdom@93

    See my reply #92 and also this:

    I've also stood on the corner and politely handed vegan leaflets but have realized that all I was doing is contributing to more trees — nonhumans' habitat — being flushed down the toilet while promoting another murderous, destructive industry albeit less destructive. For example, I wonder how many tunnel vision vegans are paying attention to the Pacific Garbage Patch which is suffocating, torturing and murdering billions of nonhuman animals as a result of over-consumption, over-population by nonvegans and vegans alike all around the globe? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a4S23uXIcM

    You're right that "guilt trips/anger/criticisum" are meaningless. Much more drastic measures are necessary to jolt most people from their complacency and stupor.
  • Strange... I was able to submit my last comment but when I tried with my next real reply nothing happened.
  • @Ante Bozanich:

    Comments are held for moderation.
  • Well, what do you know; my last comment did go through so let me continue and see what happens next...

    ----------

    Besides VHMET, I've also mentioned FREEGANISM. And, since there is also a lot misunderstanding of what this is all about, here is one more link here from NYC - a website with information on freeganism.

    http://freegan.info/

    For me very important aspect regarding freeganism is that it is the beginning of the experimentation with what communities based on concerns for others, cooperation, sharing, equality and creativity may be like as opposed to present social norms which are grounded in capitalism — competition, greed, exploitation and conformity.

    Pluralism, alliance and experimentation instead of this single issue, one track or whatever you want to call Francione's simplistic, insular, sterile doctrine. Putting all eggs in one basket is usually not a very good idea, especially when torture and murder of billions are at stake. Moreover, even if only educating masses about veganism does bring domesticated nonhuman animals to an extinction and their holocaust to an end, it will not do much for the billions of wild nonhumans and their holocaust if the expansion and proliferation of homo rapiens and destruction of wild habitat continues.

    Hey, I've been having problem leaving comments here. Sometimes they don't go through and then when I try to resubmit these same comments I get the message that I had already submitted them but these comment are not published at all. What a bummer! I have to keep rewriting and rephrasing things and then sometimes it just goes through. Has anyone else run into this problem?

    I am afraid I won't be able to submit this either unless I change it couple of times. Let's see.
  • Hey, I've been having problem leaving comments here. Sometimes they don't go through and then when I try to resubmit these same comments I get the message that I had already submitted them but these comment are not published at all. What a bummer! I have to keep rewriting and rephrasing things and then sometimes it just goes through. Has anyone else run into this problem?

    I am afraid I won't be able to submit this either unless I change it couple of times. Let's see.
  • Jen
    Lol! I love it how people who have no clue what happened, what lead to this, or how it all went down, are making wild assumptions or taking interested parties at face value.

    I was smack in the middle of the entire thing; from before the debate, to the breakdown thereof; the challenges, the libel, the harassment, to the final explosions.

    So yeah, I find it quite amusing to read these comments, having seen everything as it happened, and being in contact with your so-called "Violent Terrorists". You can believe what you want and who you want, but please, get the facts before you start throwing around as much bullshit as happened originally.

    Oh, and, for the love of all that is unholy, listen to Ward.
  • @ beforewisdom #76
    You wrote: "you will find very few people who make more than token efforts at doing things for animals other than writing."

    With all due respect, one can do virtual leafletting, too. Why attack writers and bloggers and social networking site users to make your point that our time is better spent trying to foster new vegans than fighting amongst ourselves. There's no need to "push your chair away from your computer" if you are a competent computer using animal advocate.

    For the record, I can hand out 200-600 leaflets in an hour or two on a college campus or busy public place. I can also write a blog post on Vegan Soapbox. (The website gets 200-600 unique hits every day.) BOTH are worth my time. BOTH foster veganism.

    Besides, who do you think wrote those pamphlets? Non-writers?

    Writers change the world.
  • GW
    Gary is a big mouth and a poser. Oh and an egomanic as well.
  • @Abolicousness post #90

    I've heard that term before and I agree with you about its negative effect on inspiring people to change their behavior.

    I agree with your point.

    Vegans need to be a group that people want to join.

    In the end, only very little will change for the animals unless large numbers of people become vegan. A few people will respond to ethical arguments and a smaller number will respond to guilt trips/anger/criticisum, but for the most part most people will only do it if there is something in it for them.
  • Abolicousness @90 wrote: "You know what really brings people to our cause? Phrases like “VOLUNTARY HUMAN EXTINCTION.” I think there’s got to be a better alternative between these two extremes (the Franciclones and the, uh, whatever that other stuff is.) I hope we vegans can find it."

    Here is a website to Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (VHMET). The name here is intentionally humorous, but if one actually makes an attempt to look at the pages instead of judging it by the cover, as it seems that someone above by fictitious name Abolicousness did, one will find some brilliant insights in there regarding how to at least start thinking about solutions to the problem of human over-reproduction, over-production, over-consumption etc.

    "The Movement presents an encouraging alternative to the callous exploitation and wholesale destruction of Earth's ecology."

    "Each time another one of us decides to not add another one of us to the burgeoning billions already squatting on this ravaged planet, another ray of hope shines through the gloom."

    So, here is the link for people who want to find out what this movement is really about before they start blindly judging and ridiculing it the way some people ridicule veganism for example:

    http://www.vhemt.org/
  • Patrick
    Thank you for this post Will. I had been excited to see Prof. Francione appear on Facebook and enjoyed interacting with him. But, it soon became apparent that through his incessant obsessive status updates about non-violence, that he was really very passive-agressive, extremely defensive and confrontational when not agreed with, even respectfully. The level this man takes his arguments and accusations to is astonishing and absurd. I was one of the growing number of people getting deleted or banned or whatever happened....just for disagreeing or questioning.
    I no longer have the stomach for Abolitionist Approach, his brand of Non-Violence™ and his ditto head uncritical followers. It's just another cult of personality and I'd prefer to interact with independent thinkers who aren't so incredibly insecure and divisive.
  • Abolicousness
    You know what really brings people to our cause? Phrases like "VOLUNTARY HUMAN EXTINCTION." I think there's got to be a better alternative between these two extremes (the Franciclones and the, uh, whatever that other stuff is.) I hope we vegans can find it.
  • My pleasure Will!
  • To add to my last post (# 83) here is a recent Youtube video in which Dr. Martin Balluch talks in English about what a "great fun" it is to be in an Austrian jail. (I would try to embed it but I am not sure if comments pad here would accept HTML.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64P87N8t8_8
  • Thanks very much for posting that video. After viewing it, Francione's dismissive comments about Balluch's arrest and imprisonment seem even more offensive.
  • LOL!
  • Deutsch
    I can't believe Beforewisdom has the gall to take that tone, considering his past behavior.
  • I can't think of clearer indicator of impotency than threatening someone on the internet. You might as well hang a sign around your neck telling the whole world about your undersized penis.
  • RL and L wrote:

    (@ 56) 'Right, that’s why animal exploitation has risen exponentially in the past 100 years. Because “these tactics work.” Gotcha.'

    (@ 58) "How many animals are being used for human purposes this year? more than ever! You call that working? Not me. That kind of action does more for the ego of the human participant (from my experience these folks are mainly upper middle class privileged suburban white kids) than for the animals involved."

    ----------------

    Yes right, yogis have been preaching ahimsa (do not harm) for over 5,000 of years and we know that consumption of flesh is increasing yearly. I'd say with confidence that there are more flesh eaters born every hour than the total number of vegans that will be converted by all the Francionist put together in their lifetimes. Let alone that in a system where profit/greed rules and exploitation is the norm, consumption of vegan products is far away from being free from deliberate, intentional murder and torture of millions sentient beings and destruction of their habitat.

    For a meaningful change to happen the entire bloody system has to challenged and replaced. Preaching veganism Francionist style is like trying to drain a lake one cup at the time as Martin Balluch convincingly demonstrates.

    I am quoting Martin to present a well established fact: "It is basic knowledge on human psychology that humans are much more social than rational animals." Achieving a meaningful change by one vegan, one plate at the time education is practically impossible and would take forever, specially in the capitalistic system of spectacle where the education, media and the rest of institutions are controlled and run by the oppressors and are based on hierarchical structure of exploitation and dominance. For a convincing detailed explanation and analysis of this I offer this article by Dr. Balluch for people who are not familiar with it: http://www.vgt.at/publikationen/texte/artikel/2... . BTW, there is a great graph, Stability Hypotheses in there.

    Unsurprisingly Francione (from my experience) being the master of hierarchical mindset and control disagrees with this. He responded with an idiotic straw man attack on Balluch to which then Martin gave this brilliant, devastatingly effective reply: http://www.vgt.at/publikationen/texte/artikel/2... .

    But of course, Dr Martin Balluch has spent 100 days in Austrian jail, had put himself through hunger strike for nonhuman animals and is now being charged for being a leader of compassionate organization while Straw Man is collaborating with the oppressors -- sleeping with the ilk which had put Martin in jail and who have been prosecuting Dr Balluch for bringing about effectively a meaningful change for nonhuman animals in Austria which many have praised including Tom Regan. Hey, no surprise here!

    And yes, indeed, Francione did continue with his straw man attacks on Balluch views while Martin was in jail on hunger strike as Will Potter has pointed above. Here is what this creepy F*ck wrote (from that link):

    "I find it very difficult to believe Balluch’s claim that the Austrian government is persecuting him and the others because of their role in campaigning for Austrian animal welfare laws. These laws are hardly a cause for alarm by anyone. As I discussed in an earlier essay, the Austrian laws, like welfare laws generally, further entrench animal exploitation and do nothing to eradicate the property status of animals."

    I think any moron can understand that what he is saying here is that all the efforts of Austrian prisoners were meaningless and on top of this, which is beyond revolting, is that they must be guilty of some crime because according to Francione Austrian government wouldn't be prosecuting them for their "welfare" activism.

    But we have to be careful here. We live in a fascist world of might makes right and whether we like it or not these nasty cowardly characters are in power serving self interests and the interests of the corporate/state mafia cartels to which they have sold themselves. It is not fun being in jail, no kidding.

    Anyway, I've been staying away from this garbage ever since the master and his booth kissers had banned me from ARCO and called me insane for saying openly what's on my mind few years ago. I'd rather be helping pigeons and mice or if I must go for an Internet forum fix I spend a little of my time harassing hunters down on EnviroLlink board as a part of an ongoing, nonprofit, multimedia art project called "Guns and God Country." But, I am pleased that few people at least are starting to realize now that EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES which I've said numerous times since few years ago.

    PS I've posted some of this on "Negotiation is Over" site but now that all of this and much more has been apparently shredded I am posting some of these thoughts here.

    DIRECT ACTION - SUBVERSION - FREEGANISM - VOLUNTARY HUMAN EXTINCTION
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifism_as_Pathology
    http://www.southendpress.org/2007/items/87729

    these francionites are like derrick jensenites.

    they are pre-cult and flip their lids anytime someone criticizes their glorious leader.
  • IThinkJoeIsAPaidTroll
    (Poor Joe. Everybody is too frustrated at each other to pay attention to Joe's predictable trolling. I don't want you to feel unvalidated, Joe, so I am mentioning you. See how much compassion us animal rights activists have for even dolts like you?)

    As much as I agree with a couple points that Gary makes regarding animal rights, I have to say that it Gary lacks a basic understanding of the Animal Liberation Front if he is accusing the ALF of making threats of bodily or physical violence.

    After all, the ALF's basic guidelines include and have always included not bodily harming humans.

    Having said that, I think basicwisdom makes the best point about these "academics" and this and like messes, ignore them and their petty infighting at each other's egos, and re-invest that time into vegan outreach instead. This does the animals better than "winning" any of these pointless, meaningless squabbling.
  • Ward Chanley
    NIO doesn't "promote" anything other than links to other blogs; it certainly doesn't "promote" the sorts of things Francione has implied in this; I've never threatened ANYBODY, on NIO, or anywhere else, and I'm fairly certain Gary Francione KNOWS this, or is reasonably certain of it.

    The man is playing fast and loose with the facts, and is making calculated claims that skirt the legal edge of slander. He didn't directly CLAIM any of US were the culprits in these supposed "death threats"; he's just juxtaposing us WITH that claim, and letting his uncritical following make those connections for him. It's entirely intentional, and the Francione-defending contingent here is being silly to expect anyone to pretend otherwise.

    Why should that be given a pass?
  • Ward Chanley
    @Jason/70: "Really, what has Gary done that’s so wrong? I mean, if he’s lying about having received those messages, sure, that’s wrong, but what reason do we have to believe him to be lying?"

    He's either lying, or he's far too willing to listen to people who ARE lying. He's spoken to me PERSONALLY a number of times, offering to put a link to my personal website on abolitionistapproach; if I'm one of the folks he's now implying is making death threats, if I'm "pro-violence" he's either a) a ridiculously bad judge of character, or b) I'm a much better actor than anybody's ever given me credit for.

    If the better possibility is a) isn't it much MUCH more likely that he's taking this "death threat" claim at face value without a shred of evidence, and running around shooting his mouth off as a result?

    If THAT'S the case, why *shouldn't* those of us he's running his mouth off ABOUT - given that he's none-too-subtly encouraged turning us IN - raise an objection to what he's doing?

    This is coming from an (apparently) respected Columbia law professor? Is the concept of "assuming facts not in evidence" no longer being taught at Columbia law?

    How about basic decency, and talking his personal issues with OTHER folks *with* those folks, instead of playing BS guilt-by-association games? Honestly, it looks like he didn't want to debate Best, couldn't find a way to weasel out of it and still save face, and so he's doing this. Why should we respect that kind of behavior? Because he's published several books and is regarded as a movement figure of some note? Why should that give him a free pass to behave like a spoiled brat when it suits him?
  • RL
    Awesome. I know I've done my job when some internet tough guy threatens to kick my ass.

    Before you mess with me, I'll have you know I'm 6'5, 210 lbs, and an ex-Green Beret. Or not. I could be lying.
  • @ExcuseMePeople & SM posts #71 & #72
    Thanks for the props.

    You would never know it by the way my writing has deteriorated, but I was in graduate school once many years ago. I respect academia, professors and authors.

    I find that almost every time I go out in the streets to pass out leaflets I have to push myself for the first 15 minutes until I feel comfortable.

    I think academics and writers tend to be introverts who are even more frightened by facing the general public. Among the "usual suspects" in vegan blogosphere pissing contests, especially among those tossing around sesquipedalianisms to impress, you will find very few people who make more than token efforts at doing things for animals other than writing. It just frightens them too much ( it still frightens me ) and they don't have the strength of conviction in their cause to face up to it.

    In the meantime, bickering on the internet with big words can be as addictive as crack. It is cheap and it is entertaining.

    The thing is, it doesn't matter to any of us. Once you push your chair away from your computer all of this vanishes. You can go outside and help spread veganism. You will still get other vegans to gladly help you. Life goes on.

    It takes less time too. I have been amazed by how many pamphlets I can pass out in just one hour in a busy urban spot. A will written email/blog rejoinder takes about 20 min.
    Isn't that a crime?

    We don't need these people. If we admit that we like the lunch time entertainment and just stop paying attention to them they will cease to matter.
  • Docs
    RL @ #67 -

    then let us meet up won't you, preferably down around So. California because I don't like driving much.
  • Jason
    "worthy" :-)
  • Jason
    Change "condemnatory" to "worth of condemnation" in above. My bad.
  • SM
    #53 @beforewisdom
    "Want to know how to really sock it to the pretentious, petty, judgmental, bickering vegan authors and academics?

    Don’t read their stuff anymore.

    Take 1/4 of the time we spend discussing or writing about them and go pass out vegan educational literature on the streets. Go do something even more fun with the rest of the time."

    Right on - thank you.
  • ExcuseMePeople
    #53 is the the best sense in this thread, to quote:

    "Want to know how to really sock it to the pretentious, petty, judgmental, bickering vegan authors and academics? Don’t read their stuff anymore. Take 1/4 of the time we spend discussing or writing about them and go pass out vegan educational literature on the streets. Go do something even more fun with the rest of the time. Watch the numbers of new vegans go up while you irritation level goes down."

    Amen. And Amen.

    Like beforewisdom, I don't take solace that similar infighting has occured in other social movements.

    I only take solace whenever we demonstrate that we are *learning* from the lessons by the mistakes of other present and past social movements.

    Some of us are doing that right now, many more of us can *start* doing that right now. Are you those in question up to it? I have more faith of the rest of us being up to it than "movement academia" being up to it.

    I could be wrong. And I would be happy to be wrong on that.
  • Jason
    "Francione has made it a point–like many academics, Steve Best included–to single out people he ideologically opposes and attack their positions."

    What?! Francione has criticized the positions of people with whom he disagrees?! Unbelievable, Will! We can't stand for it!


    "But sweeping, serious allegations of violence, along with naming names and encouraging people to contact law enforcement, only serves to follow in the footsteps of industry groups that have turned activists into the “number one domestic terrorism threat.""

    1. I think you misunderstand what "sweeping" means.
    2. Naming names of people who *publicly* administrate a blog that promotes violence is hardly condemnatory.
    3. And, encouraging people to contact law enforcement if they feel threatened seems like prudent advice.

    Really, what has Gary done that's so wrong? I mean, if he's lying about having received those messages, sure, that's wrong, but what reason do we have to believe him to be lying?
  • Wendy
    #32, JM,

    I wasn't aware of that. That is awesome to know.
  • Liberationnow
    Joe @ 61. The truth has prevailed in every other social justice movement throughout history. It will for the animal liberation movement as well. If you would just open your eyes and do a little more research, you would see what the truth really is. You claim to have a job that helps the environment and animals. To bash any group or person that helps animals just shows how "little" you really do.

    We live in a "Matrix" so I call it. Many just go on with their lives and look the other way. Once you realize that animals are not "things" or "property" you may think differently.

    Paul Watson is a warrior for marine life just as SHAC is for the animals inside HLS. SHAC will prevail in closing HLS, it's just a matter of time. As will Paul Watson stop the "illegal" whaling in antarctic waters. It's funny..the japanese whalers are allowed to kill whales under the guise of "science". The animal exploiters are the ones who LIE, to protect their profits!!!. I suggest you watch the documentary "Earthlings" so you can wake up and live in the real world.
  • RL
    Docs 64 - Yes I’m mad, and I’m doing something directly about it.

    Yeah, surrrre you are.
  • Steve
    Oh c'mon Joe, you disappoint me. You can do better than that. Aren't you feeling well. This isn't up to your usual standard of feeble reactionary drivel.
  • Docs
    Is RL and L the same person on here, because I would like to take some direct action on their...sorry I digress.
    Again (and how many times must it be uttered on here really?) there have never been any human-animal related deaths in the AR or ER movements. ) Yet real fanatical "activists" are busy blowing up governmental buildings, racism-motivated killings or shootings of women's reproductive health care providers!
    Both MLK Jr. and Candy knew full well, that their causes could not progress without the use of some violence.
    But AGAIN, what 'violence' has ever occurred? Breaking glass, metal, locks, doors, etc. does not make it violence.
    I am however, all for furriers getting anally electrocuted, for hunters being mauled, for vivisectionists to undergo the Draise Eye test (or eye coils), and throw the whalers to the sharks!
    Yes I'm mad, and I'm doing something directly about it.
  • Joe @61, may I ask, what is it exactly that you do "that helps the environment and animals?" You wouldn't by any chance be one of those that "culls" animals to help them? Only curious since you brought PETA, Paul Watson etc.. Anyway, what you are saying sounds so much like what I've been hearing from hunters and others in the wild life "management" which made me pause, wonder and question your motives. I apologize if I am off.
  • Ward Chanley
    L,

    Yes, Francione *generally* promotes veganism. When or if he gets back to that, some of this will be put to rest.

    As of right NOW, given that I've never made threats against ANYONE, Francione owes me an apology.

    I'll give him this: he was careful to keep it to implications and innuendo (he's a law professor, after all; he understands what constitutes actionable slander - but given that, it makes the whole thing seem just that much more calculated, really).

    The thing that's so disappointing personally is that I've had a handful of friendly, polite interactions with Francione, on Facebook and elsewhere. I'm also generally out in AR circles as a pacifist. Francione is well aware of this.

    That he decided to do this *anyway* is telling.

    I've lost any respect I once had for him.
  • Joe
    I hope this goes through. Being the only person here who has a job that actually helps the environment and animals, I am in the field now and cell service is intermit. I dont know Garys work but if he is at odds with Steve Best he cant be all that bad. @Liberationnow #43 Since when do AR groups care about the truth? PETA Lies all the time to the public about their kill shelter. Paul Watson tells his followers to make things up. SHAC often spreads lies about HLS members.
  • the flabolitionist
    i haven't heard folks so vehemently deny being in a cult since i was at the big juggalo gathering a few weeks back.
  • L
    By the way non violence does not equal pacifism. Suggesting the two are one in the same shows a real lack of understanding.
  • L
    Donna,

    "He wants people to believe that there is nothing they can do to save the non-human animals which are dieing right now. He wants you to beleive that no matter what action you commit, it will be worthless. If that isn’t the ideology of an infiltrator and a mad man, then I don’t know what is."

    You either have not read Francione or you are ignorant to what you have read. He promotes veganism, and educating people about veganism, as the way to save non-humans. You don't agree with that... Fine. but it certainly is not "nothing" and definitely not worthless. In fact, I would call it direct action. Some of us reject violence as a theoretical and practical matter. How does replicating the dominant structure of violence and domination solve anything. It certainly is not revolutionary to use the same identical tactics as the oppressor.

    I don't know where you're getting your info from. When has the direct action you speak of and advocate actually worked? were the animals "saved" not instantly replaced? How many animals are being used for human purposes this year? more than ever! You call that working? Not me. That kind of action does more for the ego of the human participant (from my experience these folks are mainly upper middle class privileged suburban white kids) than for the animals involved.
  • L
    flabolitionist,

    i actually have a life and have to step away from the computer from time to time. perhaps you are more privileged than me in that regard and can just reply at a second's notice. i can not. sorry.
    but thanks for letting me "get off" easily. no matter what you let me do (get off?) i'm not trying to "win" (by not throwing in the towell) but just correct someone who should know better (will).
    actually if you read my first two posts i made it clear that will made erroneous statements that no respectable journalist should be allowed to get away with unchecked. did anyone read the francione link he posted? it was not AT ALL what will said it was. not at all. will, you have not retracted your statement. then he (you, will) blames critics of folks that promote violence, instead of those that actually incite violence, for being responsible for turning "activists into the “number one domestic terrorism threat.”
    it's interesting that someone cannot just find francione's point of view valid, and disagree with will, without being in a cult or a franciombe or unable to think for themselves or just becoming the brunt end of some idiotic name calling and petulant taunting. talk about a cult? just don't drink the kool-aid, kids!
    at the end of will's original post he asked "what do you think?" it's a shame that many here cannot handle what others' think if that is in contrast to what they think.
  • RL
    Why would a man preporting to care about the rights of animals denounce the one and only tactic which has worked consistently to free animals and to close down places of exploitation for over 100 years? Can’t you see the answer? Because these tactics work!!

    Right, that's why animal exploitation has risen exponentially in the past 100 years. Because "these tactics work." Gotcha.

    One thing I've always wondered about you brave soldiers in the 101st Keyboard Brigade of Total Liberation: why will all of you will attack someone who breaks the Vegan Golden Rule and actually criticizes the actions of the ALF, yet you're so busy posting on your blogs and facebook and myspace and twitter about the need for "NO COMPROMISE!!!" and "TOTAL LIBERATION!!!" that you aren't actually out there committing direct action? Is it because you're a bunch of chest-thumping macho blowhards who want to influence others to do your dirty work? Nah, that can't be it...
  • Donna Balaclava
    @ Kelly G no.46

    "Whoah there. While I think we’re on the same page re: direct action, in comparing pacifist animal advocates to Neo-Nazis, you’re essentially doing the same thing you (rightfully) accuse Francione of doing: “breeding contempt in an already splintered animal rights movement.” Those who disagree with Best et. al. are no more Neo-Nazis than critics of Francione are terrorists.

    Critical self-reflection and practical/philosophical discussions are good for the movement – personally, I think we need more of these, not less – but can we take the rhetoric down a notch already?"


    My use of the Neo-Nazi comparison was merely meant to emphasise the obsessive nature which has been seen so often regarding the choice made to save a brick than to save a life. What I was trying to get at by using the Holocaust analogy was that millions, even billions, of sentient animals are being murdered in this world and those who are prepared to stand back and bicker over theological boundaries and the meaning of the word "terrorist" are doing nothing more than the Nazis and their followers did in the Holocaust. There are so many comparisons that can be made between people like Francione and what happened in the 1930s and 1940s, that it's scary. Perhaps neo-Nazis is a little strong but their philosophy is worryingly similar.

    I have often asked people why it was that when the Nazis were transporting people to the concentration camps on those trains, nobody ever stopped those trains and saved those people even though it could have (in theory) been done. The answer, because everybody had accepted the status quo and believed they could do nothing. This is exactly the same thing we are seeing with Francione. He wants people to believe that there is nothing they can do to save the non-human animals which are dieing right now. He wants you to beleive that no matter what action you commit, it will be worthless. If that isn't the ideology of an infiltrator and a mad man, then I don't know what is.

    Francione consistently goes out of his way to denounce direct action and those who risk their own freedom to save the lives of non-human animals being exploited all over the world right now. Have any of you stopped for a second and asked yourself why? Why would a man preporting to care about the rights of animals denounce the one and only tactic which has worked consistently to free animals and to close down places of exploitation for over 100 years? Can't you see the answer? Because these tactics work!! It's all too easy to cripple a movement if you remove it's most important factors. Those who believe in direct action are not violent nutters, they just happen to be people who aren't pacifists but have far more compassion in their hearts than any of Francione's cult members ever will.

    Matching the ideology of the Nazis and their supporters to the theology (which is what it is, lets face facts here) of Francione and his followers, there are worrying similarities. We must also face the fact that Francione is an infiltrator of the movement and that is why he is attacking people like Steve Best and Camille. There is a holocaust going on, non-human animals are being murdered and Francione will NEVER do anything about it.

    Most of my time, I spend on scientific refutals of pro-vivisectionist claims and I would much rather be doing that and educating people than having to argue about some prat who thinks himself the second coming (Buddhist style). This is what he wants, different factions of the animal rights movement arguing and debating whilst he can sit back and admire what a wonderful job he's done of splintering the movement a little bit further. Don't let him. Just ignore him. I'd rather not have to post on here and do something actually constructive with my time which is why I had been ignoring Francione recently until his minion named me on their little "hit list" for no apparent reason. Don't give the jerk the satisfaction of reading all your comments and thinking how wonderful he is - get out there and do something to really make a difference!
  • RL
    "Wow. How in the world are you this outraged when you, as you say above, “have no idea if any threats were actually made”? "

    I'm not particularly outraged, I promise I talk like this all the time. And I'm not even bothered specifically about alleged threats, I'm bothered by the fact that what could have been an interesting debate is being derailed into personal pettiness. I'm also bothered by the fact that so many people are taking the ravings of Camille seriously, kind of like how teabagger rallies bother me.

    As far as linking to that blog, it was only that, a LINK. And it was a link not because I agree with anything on the blog, but because it is relevant to the issue and there are few other items to link to. (Which is why I asked you to post one, and I’d be happy to add it). It doesn’t mean that link was my only source–In fact, I don’t quote from that blog, but I DO quote the entire text of the message from Francione.

    You have a reputation for being objective and unbiased, whether deserved or not. Because of this, the casual observer will click that link and walk away thinking that Will Potter told them exactly what happened. You may not have intended it, but the Best/Camille crowd is using your post in an attempt to justify the deranged public temper tantrum they've been having ever since this debate fiasco started. I've simply tried to expand on what actually happened and how both Camille's, Steven Best's, and now your interpretations of what happened are wrong. I hope that I've done that, and if not, I'd be happy to clarify.

    The most troubling aspect of all of your comments, to me, is that this somehow is all about an attempt to “malign Gary Francione” and that I don’t agree with his philosophy. I’m sorry, but where are you getting this stuff from? Have I said a single thing about the man’s work, or what I believe, outside of being critical of this scare-mongering? Or is this just another example of the “with us or against us” mentality of the War on Terrorism? I’m afraid it is the latter, and you continue to exemplify all the reactionary, guilt-by-association politics that I wrote this post about.

    I didn't say that you set out to malign Francione, I said that you made a post maligning him without having the whole story. As I said, I don't care if all sides want to snipe at each other regarding ideology, it's the personal stuff that it's devolved into that annoys me.

    Or is this just another example of the “with us or against us” mentality of the War on Terrorism? I’m afraid it is the latter, and you continue to exemplify all the reactionary, guilt-by-association politics that I wrote this post about.

    You don't win an argument by ascribing completely made-up motives to someone; that's called constructing a strawman. It's juvenile, for starters, and not particularly useful when debating ideas. Unless you want to just sit here and call each other nazis all day, that is.

    This is just my opinion, but all I would ask is that, because of the stature you hold, you either stay out of the fray or at least do some research before you start chiding Gary Francione for being a fed or whatever. I attempted to provide some balance in the comments section. As I said, I think I've done that, but it's fairly disappointing that someone whose blog I respected as unbiased and objective would do write something as sloppy as this blog post.
  • Want to know how to really sock it to the pretentious, petty, judgmental, bickering vegan authors and academics?

    Don't read their stuff anymore.

    Take 1/4 of the time we spend discussing or writing about them and go pass out vegan educational literature on the streets. Go do something even more fun with the rest of the time.

    Watch the numbers of new vegans go up while you irritation level goes down.
  • 32 j m
    I know I’m late getting in on this discussion, but there’s some solace to take in the similarity to other movements.


    I think too many vegans rely on that kind of thinking. I wonder if the people in *those* movements made those comparisons? So far those movements have had one think veganism has lacked: significant success penetrating the mainstream.
  • RL
    Will-
    From what I understand, Gary has pretty much thrown his hands up and walked away from this considering the behavior of Best and his minions. If I had a link, I'd give it to you. All I know is what I've been told by "Franciombes" and the behavior I've seen from Best, Camille, and their 101st Keyboad Brigade of TOTAL LIBERATION!!!11

    Towards you personally, what I'm objecting to is your posting an INCREDIBLY biased and distorted account of what happened (take a look at this Camille's blog, and see if she has any credibility whatsoever, nevermind the daily temper tantrum Best has been throwing on his myspace blog) in an attempt to malign Gary Francione without any mention that your only source for this is certifiably insane. If you have disagreements with Gary's philosophy, great, but distorting what he (or in this case, someone who associates with him) actually said in an attempt to make some larger point (and I still have no idea what that point would be) is either intentionally dishonest or just plain lazy on your part.

    These were not underground activists he "outed", these were 101st Keyboard Warriors and associates of a Steve Best and Camille, who openly advocates ACTUAL violence, not just property damage, against nonvegans. I have no idea if any threats were actually made, but considering the Operation Rescue-esque nature of Camille's blog, I wouldn't doubt that one her equally unhinged followers went that far. Telling people to report posts like that is not "traitorous" or "McCarthyesque" as Best has claimed, it's a common sense reaction to apparent threats of physical violence.

    Whether you like it or not, by posting this out of the blue on nothing more than Camille's word, you have picked a side. Your blog is being quoted far and wide by Best and his minions as proof that Gary is a fed or traitorous, or whatever other hysterical crap they'll probably soon come up with. If that wasn't your intention, maybe you should've put a little more thought into posting this.
  • RL:

    Wow. How in the world are you this outraged when you, as you say above, "have no idea if any threats were actually made"?

    As far as linking to that blog, it was only that, a LINK. And it was a link not because I agree with anything on the blog, but because it is relevant to the issue and there are few other items to link to. (Which is why I asked you to post one, and I'd be happy to add it). It doesn't mean that link was my only source--In fact, I don't quote from that blog, but I DO quote the entire text of the message from Francione.

    The most troubling aspect of all of your comments, to me, is that this somehow is all about an attempt to "malign Gary Francione" and that I don't agree with his philosophy. I'm sorry, but where are you getting this stuff from? Have I said a single thing about the man's work, or what I believe, outside of being critical of this scare-mongering? Or is this just another example of the "with us or against us" mentality of the War on Terrorism? I'm afraid it is the latter, and you continue to exemplify all the reactionary, guilt-by-association politics that I wrote this post about.
  • RL
    So Will's going to let this blog post stand unedited, complete with the link to Camile's blog posting? Well, I'm glad to see so clearly that his interest in being objective isn't as important as his interest in drumming up hits to his blog.
  • RL:

    No, I'm not going to edit my work simply because you do not agree. However, if there is a link to an alternative account of all of this by Francione or one of his supporters, by all means please post it. I would be willing to add a hyperlink in my blog post directly after the link you mention above.
  • Naturally, I managed to butcher my html. Only the first para should be italicized @ #46.
  • @ Donna Balaclava, #41

    If you value bricks, locks and windows more than you do a beating heart and a soul then you are not anything to do with animal rights, you are in fact nothing more than a neo-Nazi. Francione is breeding contempt in an already splintered animal rights movement.

    Whoah there. While I think we're on the same page re: direct action, in comparing pacifist animal advocates to Neo-Nazis, you're essentially doing the same thing you (rightfully) accuse Francione of doing: "breeding contempt in an already splintered animal rights movement." Those who disagree with Best et. al. are no more Neo-Nazis than critics of Francione are terrorists.

    Critical self-reflection and practical/philosophical discussions are good for the movement - personally, I think we need more of these, not less - but can we take the rhetoric down a notch already?

    @ Will - Thanks for this. Here's to more voices of sanity, and less blind hero worship.
  • Jay
    Thanks, Epson Salts. Christ, it's like an episode of the Real World around here.

    No one knows the net benefit of the ALF's work. No one knows the net benefit of Francione's work. Get on with stopping animal exploitation in the way you think is best and stop with feeding the trolls.
  • Epsom Salts
    Well, one thing seems clear after reading these comments (and others around the internet): Debates like these are based on misunderstandings, bruised egos, and a need to protect one's chosen ideology. It's all a colossal waste of time, and its disturbing to see people bashing other activists that are doing and saying important things as if they're fanatics. Talk about doing the work of the exploiters for them.
  • Liberationnow
    Will, we need more people like you to report the TRUTH, bravo. It's so aggravating to me that the movement is so divided. The 'welfarists" against the "liberationists". Thats why we haven't won and we never will unless we unite. Just think of what could be accomplished if we all worked together?. Still amazes me that you see less then 100 people at protests, sometimes less than 10. There should be thousands!. FOCUS ON ONE COMMON GOAL! I think I have a new job, uniting the masses and organizing!. Yikes, I might be called a terrorist ring leader!...what's right is right, they can call us what they want. The truth will prevail.
  • Donna Balaclava
    Hello

    As one of those who has been named by Francione I would like to thank Will for speaking out against such absurdity. I have only just found out that I have been named as one of these supposed "violent terrorists" or whatever Francione wishes to term me. I'm not surprised in the least given the little communication I have had from this man. Yes, I have attempted to debate with him over his foundationless ideals concerning non-violence but I was either ignored or treated as if I were insane. My primary problem with Francione is that he appears to be approaching animal rights as if it were a religious argument. I have already explained to many people that Jainism is not a vegan religioun but a vegetarian one and it does appear to me that Francione is attempting to create a cult version of an ancient vegetarian religion at the expense of the abolitionists.

    To be quite honest, I really don't care if he runs to the FBI because I've challeneged his theological ideals. I am not a violent person but neither am I a pacifist. I agree with direct action to save the lives of the voiceless non-human animals. If a person believes that a building or a lock can feel more pain than a rat with an electrode in its brain or a beagle with it's fur burnt to sinders or a cow forced to remain pregnant in order to offer up her milk to line the stomachs of the greedy and the apathetic then I suggest you book yourself in for a pyschological evaluation and get yourself certified.

    Animals are suffering now! Do we wish to wait until the political system accepts the aniaml rights methodology (which is years, decades, even centuries in the future) so that we may act inside the law or do we wish to bend those laws in order to save those who are suffering now?? If this were Nazi Germany, would you not recuse those in concentration camps?

    If you value bricks, locks and windows more than you do a beating heart and a soul then you are not anything to do with animal rights, you are in fact nothing more than a neo-Nazi. Francione is breeding contempt in an already splintered animal rights movement. Why you may ask yourself would he do this? Because he is an infiltrator, of the worst kind, he's in it to make a name for himself and create his little cult.

    Animal rights activists must stand united in the face of adversity, we must band together and dispel false rumours and scaremongering. People like Francione, Langley, Lyons, Singer etc etc etc are all people who have infiltrated the animal rights movement and come very close to bringing it to its knees. Now is the time to stand united against them, as a movement which should no longer be splintered and to bring about what we want for the voiceless - total abolition of animal exploitation!!

    Francione and other infiltrators want attention so as to divert you away from what's really going on. Take a look around you - exploitation is getting worse! More animals are being killed for food, more animals are being killed in vivisection laboratories, more animals are being killed and abused for so called entertainment and the list goes on and on and on. Ignore Francione, he'll go away in the end (just like a bad smell). If people are so dumn that they are taken in by his theology then they are no loss to us. They would not have brought about change, only hindered it. Francione is one of the many who will burn out in their own time. Our fight is now, it is for abolition not trading pot shots across the internet. Get out there, demo, speak, bring about change! The animals have only us, we cannot let them down!!!
  • RL
    What you are doing is posting a distorted account of what happened based solely on the word of Best and his Unhinged Mob. That's what I mean by "tying your horse."
  • @#37, RL:

    Do you realize that by attempting to "tie my horse" to any of these groups--which I clearly have not done, in any way--you are doing the exact same thing I wrote this post about?
  • L wrote: "I’m wondering how many critics of Francione here have actually read Francione’s books…"

    Yes I have read his books and I am sure many others have. The problem is that he does not say anything meaningfully new in them. His last book I had to rush through because now he is also only repeating his old slogans over and over again the way a frog repeats "ribid." In the light of this, it is nauseating to see how egotistically he guards "his intellectual property" as he did in his vicious character assassination of Joan Dunayer.

    But all this aside -- there is plenty of other rubbish collecting dust on the bookshelves -- my real problem with Franceone is that he is playing a strategist. With his blind followers he is becoming counter productive and harmful to the movement and this means that he is harming non human animals. This is where I draw the line and put him on the enemy side along with Richard Berman of CCF and other oppressive forces. This last incident has sealed it it for me.
  • RL
    Wow, Will, this has definitely knocked your credibility down a notch.

    (1) Steve Best and his Mob have definitely upped the rhetoric to where I'd be worried about my physical safety. There's a difference between disagreement and imploring your Mob to go out and physically threaten people. Steve Best is starting to remind me of Randall Terry, not a professor.

    (2) "but because of a Facebook group that promotes ideas he disagrees with." Yeah, ideas like committing violent acts (not property damage, actual physical violence) against non-vegans. What a responsible group to tie your horse to, Will, in an attempt to portray vegans, both DA-supporters and non-supporters, as rational people.

    (3) Inb4 "divisiveness" "Franciombe" "cult" accusations of GF's "followers" saying mean things about all the little martyrs commenting about how "Gary's so MEANNNN!!!"

    And to both sides: grow up. For christ's sake, this isn't high school, this is supposed to be an intelligent debate.
  • Not sure why that came out anonymous, but #35 was me.

    #32 So we got that going for us. . . which is nice.
    Bringing Carl Spackler (of Caddyshack) to greenisthenewred--well done!
  • Anonymous
    Thanks, Will.

    I have read both Francione and Best (though not all of the latter) and agree and disagree with both. But here's the difference, in my experience: You're allowed to disagree with Steve Best. It's good news because it means you're thinking.

    And that's why I found the reference to Best in connection with threats against animal rights activists very suspect. It doesn't make sense; he doesn't operate that way. It's sad to think that AR activists might be responsible for the persecution and even prosecution of other AR activists, when billions and billions of animals are enslaved and dying.
  • Thanks for posting this Will. I heard about this a few days ago and decided to read the emails back and forth and got many things from it. First, I'm annoyed that there are threats being made. Are they in elementary school because I thought they were grown men (I suppose I could be wrong). Secondly, talk about a privacy issue with having your emails published for all to read, though I must admit it was their screw-up for forwarding them to whomever and realize that they each just wanted to get more people in on "it". This entire situation is a shining example of how NOT to conduct onself as an activist. They are hurting the movement. So it's public fact that they don't agree...get over it and move on for the animals. The animals don't care about our tactics, they just want to be free from exploitation. In fact if our movement is ever going to be successful it is going to include all kinds of techniques. I suggest that Best and Francione both read "How Nonviolence Protects the State" and get over their giant egos.
  • flabolitionist
    L, it sounds like you're throwing in the towel. you made your points several times and nobody said you were part of some cult. are you looking for folks to say you're part of the cult so you can now write off the points Will patiently made for you?

    i assure you that you are getting off far easier than people who dare to disagree with francione or that fraud bob torres. i doubt Will is going to ban you from his website like they do.
  • IThinkJoeIsAPaidTroll
    Lets not confuse the art with the artist. Gary L. Francione makes good arguments in regards to critical need of abolishing the property status of animals to be able to obtain rights for other animals. So, again, you can like a piece of art, but not like the artist or like everything the artist says or does.
  • j m
    I know I'm late getting in on this discussion, but there's some solace to take in the similarity to other movements. In the struggle for women's suffrage there were two factions, the mainstream and the radical. The mainstream wrote letters, and operated in traditional ways. Then along came Alice Paul and her rabblerousers and they stood outside the White House day after day after day until they were arrested, and long story short (too late) they won. . .

    So we got that going for us. . . which is nice.
  • Abolicousness
    I wonder how many critics of Ann Coulter have actually read her books?

    Argument is the fail.
  • L
    I'm wondering how many critics of Francione here have actually read Francione's books...
    I'm also wondering how long it will take someone to say I'm in "Francione's cult" just for not agreeing with everyone here.
  • the flabolitionist
    i'm telling gary! i will be back with hundreds of sycophantic dittoheads to tell you "what gary says" and "what gary thinks" and "what gary means." by doing this all over the interwebz, we are helping the animals!

    i will quote gary. i will allude to gary. i will shower gary. with praise. you will be most crush-ed by this!

    you will pay will potter. you will be up all night having to approve comments that will have the effect of non-violently crushing your little website and haircut into dust!

    i will be back, soulgrynde, and i will not be alone. get ready for the non-violent firestorm!
  • @the flabolitionist:

    Nooooooooooooo! Street by street, blog by blog...
  • My thoughts on Francione:
    - He's not all that bright
    - He makes a few good points (and a lot of bad ones)
    - He's a little nutty, but so are all the leaders in our movement
    - He is probably a net good for the movement since he represents a group of people who think the only and best action to take to help animals is "non-violent vegan education," which really isn't all that bad
  • SM
    Thanks for writing & posting this Will. I've been getting really down lately about the amount of unproductive in-fighting within the AR 'community.' I agree that this specific example you've posted about follows "in the footsteps of industry groups that have turned activists into the 'number one domestic terrorism threat.'"
  • IThinkJoeIsAPaidTroll
    Personally, I have had sour experiences with so-called academia activists or "movement professors" before. I've found very good reasons, for example, to be disillusioned with Peter Singer, Gary L. Francione, and Anthony J. Nocella II (talk about so pretentious he just can't call himself Jr. but insists on the II instead). I can respect their ideas, but that doesn't me I must respect all of their ideas nor does it mean that I must like them completely, if at all, as people.

    We need to regard such people and ALL people with matter-of-factness rather than to ever, ever idolize them. Not only are they not saints, but they can be even down right petty sometimes too. They ARE ordinary people. They are also ordinary people who sometimes are so lavished with such worship that they sometimes get a little metaphorically "drunk", irresponsible, and even manipulative.

    Not only does idolizing figures in the movement risk stealing our own personal initiatives, but it also needlessly risks fostering "divisiveness".

    With incidents like this, when any figure tries to draw lines in the sand and force people to stand behind them or against them, I ignore such attempts.

    For my allegiance is not with any movement figures, but to the animal rights movement and the nonhuman animals which it seeks to free from human tyranny.

    To me, it doesn't need to be more complicated than that.

    Period.
  • Gina
    Thank you for this, Will. As someone close to people who have been affected by Francione's hatred, lies and distortions, I am relieved to see him being called out publicly for this. His followers will not be happy and will likely quote his books and use big words to try and appear as if they've been wronged, but truth will hopefully prevail.
  • @Jay #15 Thanks for that PC reverse sexism moment.
  • L
    Will, 1) it should be clear that my first point was that Francione was criticizing Balluch *prior* to his detention. The post you linked to is not at all as you say, "Francione went out of his way to attack the “welfarist” campaigns of the activists arrested." Again, BEFORE he was arrested Francione was already criticizing Balluch's approach. He did not use Balluch's arrest to promote his approach or make his point. In this case your statement is incorrect and, if you are the responsible journalist I thought you were, it should be retracted.

    2) you say "But sweeping, serious allegations of violence, along with naming names and encouraging people to contact law enforcement, only serves to follow in the footsteps of industry groups that have turned activists into the “number one domestic terrorism threat.” You make it seem like calls for firebombing (coronado) and assassinating vivisectors (vlasak) are not actions "that have turned activists into the “number one domestic terrorism threat.” You are irresponsibly and erroneously placing that blame on critics of these kinds of tactics like Francione. That was my point. Sorry if it wasn't clear. And specifically with Best, well, look online and read and watch for yourself and see if he is not inciting violence. I did a simple google search and found that, in fact, he IS inciting violence. "WE ARE AT WAR!" "I WANT THEM TO FEEL THE FEAR" "I WANT THEM HAVING NIGHTMARES, I WANT THEM FEARFUL THAT WE'RE CREEPING INTO THEIR BEDROOMS EVERY MINUTE". (direct quotes)

    3) You're right, I had it backwards but my other two points above stand. I am not an experienced journalist with credentials, as you are, so I make mistakes. What's your excuse?

    I've always been a huge fan of this blog and your work. I just think you've been a little hasty in making this post, Will.

    Best back at you,

    L
  • L
    Will, I thought you were more of a responsible journalist than this. First of all Francione was criticizing Balluch prior to his detention.

    http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/a-very-new-...

    Perhaps you didn't read that entry or perhaps it didn't fit into your conclusions here?

    Also read the Francione post you link here to see that he does not condone Balluch's detention.

    Second, can you actually deny that folks representing (or working in the name of) the ALF have not advocated violence? That would be a complete distortion of the truth. Coronado, Vlasak to name two.

    It is not Francione who makes the ALF look like crazy bullying violent extremists, it is people working under the banner of ALF, promoting violence and intimidation tactics, that are doing a great job of that.

    Granted, asking someone to de-friend someone else is a bit strange but can you deny that these folks "Mary Xanthos, Karen Challenges, Ward Chanley, Kerri Millam, Holly Donna Balaclava, Gina Maltese, and Camile Marino", etc. have been threatened with violence, by other folks in the animal advocacy movement, because they disagree with violence?

    knee jerk much, will?
  • L:
    In response to your points:

    1. Follow the hyperlink directly embedded in my post to find the Francione article criticizing Balluch after his arrest. In case you are having some trouble doing that, here is the link again:
    http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/a-comment-o...

    2. What do Coronado and Vlasak have to do with this? I may be missing something, but Francione is clearly saying that Steve Best is inciting violence against anyone who disagrees with him. Francione is trying to link Best and others to the ALF--which is absurd enough to begin with, but even more absurd considering the ALF itself has never harmed a human being.

    3. Please read Francione's message. He is not saying the individuals named above "have been threatened with violence," but that they are somehow tied to violence. You have it completely backwards.

    I'm not sure what you mean by saying I "knee jerk," because it seems you are responding without having actually read my post, Francione's blog post on Balluch, or Francione's message.

    Best,
    Will
  • Brandon wrote what I was going to write, but I'll do it anyway. Will, you're a voice of reason.
  • Thank you Tracy, that's very kind. I sincerely wish the kitten would get the memo about me being reasonable, as she continually refuses to negotiate about philosphical differences (like her thinking it's ok to jump headfirst into my smoothie, as she did last night when I turn around to answer the phone).
  • anon
    Unfortunately - even Peaceful Prairie Sanctuary also has links to "Mercy for Animal" - which supports a vegetarian diet too... As well as other links to "welfarist" organizations. They do have a "disclaimer" - perhaps this is what the ALF site should do as well?
    This "guilt by association" is really beginning to unravel any kind of unity. And the animals are the only ones to suffer.
  • Jay
    We vegan men can't kill non-humans, so we turn our competitive and destructive nature on each other. Hopefully someday we'll realize that we all did our part to change society.
  • I think if all of the vegan "intelligentsia" on the internet got together to share a big batch of brownies laced with vitamin b-12 the maturity level of the discussion might just improve :)
  • I'm not surprised about any of this. I have been appalled with the (low) level of maturity with which academics and ex-academics have shared their views on the internet. I don't think it is befitting of their positions as educators. It reflects poorly on academia and them personally.
  • Lin
    I'm on the edge of my seat in anticipation of Joe's comment. Seriously...It's going to be awesome. I have my theory of what he's going to say...I just can't share it because then he'll zig and zag the other way just to spite me.
  • Thank you for this! This inspired me to update a recent entry on this debate in my blog as well. I had no idea all of this was happening.
  • As someone who is a target of Francione's derision for speaking out in moral support of nonviolent direct action as /one/ part of the abolitionist struggle, I thank you for speaking out. Your voice of reason and clarity is much appreciated by the animal rights movement!
  • Thanks for the note, Brandon!
  • Lin
    In the words of Propagandhi: "With friends like these, who the fuck needs COINTELPRO?"
    It's insane to me that we, as a movement, are still so focused on these "My tactics are the only acceptable tactics" discussions. It saddens me that we are the greatest hope for the 10 billion animals who die every year because that means that they truly have no hope.
  • Francione put up a new post today that demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire nature of underground groups throughout history. He calls animalliberationfront.com the website of the ALF, and proceeds to rant against the ALF for linking to non-vegan celebrities and welfarist groups.

    http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/hey-is-that...

    You'd think a professor of law would be able to grasp the concept that an underground group does not have a website, and that that website is run by whoever bought the domain.

    It's kind of like if I visited earthliberationfront.org and then wrote a blog post: "OH MY GOD, THE ELF IS SELLING VIAGRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
  • Jason
    Why is it "idiotic" to protect oneself from threats of violence? Surely, threatening violence is a form of terrorism. It's meant to instill a feeling of terror after all, no?
  • Jason:

    That's not what I said. To clarify, my problem is the baseless, scare-mongering accusation that a philosphy professor at a major university is inciting physical violence against people who email him.
  • This divisiveness is crazy! "With friends like this, who needs CoIntelpro?"

    Oh man, I was looking forward to that debate on Animal Voices. It's not happening? Bummer!
  • Wendy
    I'm just glad all this is happening. Now I don't have to worry about the CIA and the FBI anymore, since we're managing to ruin our own movement before it becomes a half century old.

    I'm proud to be part of all this.

    >(
  • Matt
    The government and its animal-abusing funders are thrilled to tears over this divisive crap. Thanks, Francione!
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