Comments on: “Eco-Terrorism” Grand Jury Witch Hunt in PA, And Flashbacks of the Red Scare http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/eco-terrorism-grand-jury-witch-hunt-in-pa-and-flashbacks-of-the-red-scare/627/ Tue, 27 Jul 2010 06:25:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Will Potter http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/eco-terrorism-grand-jury-witch-hunt-in-pa-and-flashbacks-of-the-red-scare/627/comment-page-1/#comment-172552 Will Potter Fri, 03 Oct 2008 20:58:35 +0000 http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/?p=627#comment-172552 Kevin: I think there's definitely some miscommunication here, and after re-reading this post I can see some aspects of what you have said, and others I just wanted to clarify. To be clear, to you and to folks reading this, my criticism of the secrecy of grand juries is a criticism of the entire witch hunt process, not of the people who are targeted by it. I did not intend to give the impression that I was attacking you, because I'm not. As you spelled out, this is incredibly complicated, and in hindsight I should have emphasized that much more in this quick post. And I should have emphasized that my focus on "secrecy" was not, in any way, an implied judgement of you. I've been consistently opposed to not just the grand jury process, but to public perceptions that someone targeted is guilty by association. That being said, I do think that these are issues people need to talk more about. My intention with ending with a question was to start that, not to imply that you had said something to the grand jury. I hope this clears some parts of this up, and I hope folks reading this continue to support all activists targeted by grand juries in these political witch hunts. Best, Will Kevin:
I think there’s definitely some miscommunication here, and after re-reading this post I can see some aspects of what you have said, and others I just wanted to clarify. To be clear, to you and to folks reading this, my criticism of the secrecy of grand juries is a criticism of the entire witch hunt process, not of the people who are targeted by it. I did not intend to give the impression that I was attacking you, because I’m not. As you spelled out, this is incredibly complicated, and in hindsight I should have emphasized that much more in this quick post. And I should have emphasized that my focus on “secrecy” was not, in any way, an implied judgement of you.

I’ve been consistently opposed to not just the grand jury process, but to public perceptions that someone targeted is guilty by association.

That being said, I do think that these are issues people need to talk more about. My intention with ending with a question was to start that, not to imply that you had said something to the grand jury. I hope this clears some parts of this up, and I hope folks reading this continue to support all activists targeted by grand juries in these political witch hunts. Best, Will

]]> By: Kevin Tucker http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/eco-terrorism-grand-jury-witch-hunt-in-pa-and-flashbacks-of-the-red-scare/627/comment-page-1/#comment-172529 Kevin Tucker Fri, 03 Oct 2008 19:11:27 +0000 http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/?p=627#comment-172529 Will, I think it would behoove you not to speculate like you've done here. My reputation within the green anarchist/anarcho-primitivist scene I thought was strong enough that folks wouldn't feel the need to question whether I spoke or not. It's my lawyers advice not to talk to anyone while we see where things lie and do to the approaches taken by the Feds so far it's a pretty ambiguous situation, hence I've been reluctant to shout about it. How much do I have to do for folks to have some faith in me? Fuck it. Assume what you want. I'll post about this when I have a clearer grasp on the situation, but I can say things out East are different than out West. Perhaps slower, perhaps more contrived. I'm the first person subpoenaed before the GJ in Erie to even come out about it and there was a media storm. I regret not having talked to the media immediately afterwards in a lot of ways, but I can still have contempt hearings, immunity hearings, or just be constantly re subpoenaed, things may be moving slower or they may be moving fast, I don't know. I have a lot of thoughts on all of this. I'm being responsible here and not risking anything by having some knee jerk response to someone presumptively trying to coy me into an uncomfortable situation. I ask that you respect that. The GJ in Erie is a desperate one, and we don't know that much about it. I think coming after me was a sign of desperation as I had said in the Erie Times article. How they will respond has yet to be seen. This could be over, but I definitely don't assume so. I will say this. Aside from the three preliminary questions (name, acknowledgment that I've been subpoenaed and am there to testify) before the five questions. The fifth was 'are you going to plead the fifth to every question' and the whole thing was less than 5 minutes. The other 15 were me signing papers for travel reimbursement and talking to my lawyer. I agree about issues of silence and coming out. People who know me know this. But I have reason to be cautious here, and having been sick for a month now and trying to cope with the financial stress this has only added to my life, I decided that I should have a much clearer head when I make these decisions. But I do want to say that GJ laws vary from state to state. I was advised that, at least in PA, the extent of what is said outside the courtroom can lead to revoking fifth amendment rights without granting immunity. Which may not mean a lot when all is said and done, but it's another step to blocking their processes that is taken away. But, in all honesty, Will, I think I'm having a hard time restraining myself. I know a lot of people talk a mean game, but to be leading the way you are here about your thoughts on what I MAY have done is sickening. I have ALWAYS supported prisoners and anyone undergoing legal battles regardless of our differences. I've been public about all of this, I've drawn a huge light on what has been going on in Erie, and I will always put myself on the chopping block for what I believe. ALWAYS. The issues of collapse and attacks on civilization are relevant to the 'Green Scare' in every light. Perhaps not being your primary concern should be rethought in light of the fact that you're making blanket statements for how one should treat a political witch hunt. The two are tied together. And fucking believe me when I say that I've agonized over whether or not to even go. I've talked to people who I respect and people who I don't and weighed it all. Fuck, I've been so ready for the possibility of facing time that I had to bring my family into it. I don't believe in morality. I don't believe one solution always works outside of NEVER TALK TO FEDS/COPS. But I've NEVER judged someone for their decision to either go or not go to the GJ. I trust people will generally make informed decisions if they've gone far enough to be public about the whole ordeal and seek support/advice. I was served the subpoena at my house. I would have been arrested, transported by the Feds to PA, subpoenaed again, and then held or released up there until my next court date, at which point I would have been arrested again for not showing up. My lawyer did not support a full resist and was one of many people pointing out that it probably wouldn't have changed the outcome. When the time comes to making a forced decision, I'll do what must be done. But if you JUDGE ME for what I've done, come out and fucking say it. Like any other detractor on the nerd net talking shit, I will fight you on it till I die. Perhaps we should take up the discussion mentioned earlier on the implications of collapse instead of sitting on the internet and puffing chests. For wildness and anarchy, KT Will,
I think it would behoove you not to speculate like you’ve done here. My reputation within the green anarchist/anarcho-primitivist scene I thought was strong enough that folks wouldn’t feel the need to question whether I spoke or not. It’s my lawyers advice not to talk to anyone while we see where things lie and do to the approaches taken by the Feds so far it’s a pretty ambiguous situation, hence I’ve been reluctant to shout about it.
How much do I have to do for folks to have some faith in me? Fuck it. Assume what you want. I’ll post about this when I have a clearer grasp on the situation, but I can say things out East are different than out West. Perhaps slower, perhaps more contrived. I’m the first person subpoenaed before the GJ in Erie to even come out about it and there was a media storm. I regret not having talked to the media immediately afterwards in a lot of ways, but I can still have contempt hearings, immunity hearings, or just be constantly re subpoenaed, things may be moving slower or they may be moving fast, I don’t know.
I have a lot of thoughts on all of this. I’m being responsible here and not risking anything by having some knee jerk response to someone presumptively trying to coy me into an uncomfortable situation. I ask that you respect that.
The GJ in Erie is a desperate one, and we don’t know that much about it. I think coming after me was a sign of desperation as I had said in the Erie Times article. How they will respond has yet to be seen. This could be over, but I definitely don’t assume so.
I will say this. Aside from the three preliminary questions (name, acknowledgment that I’ve been subpoenaed and am there to testify) before the five questions. The fifth was ‘are you going to plead the fifth to every question’ and the whole thing was less than 5 minutes. The other 15 were me signing papers for travel reimbursement and talking to my lawyer.
I agree about issues of silence and coming out. People who know me know this. But I have reason to be cautious here, and having been sick for a month now and trying to cope with the financial stress this has only added to my life, I decided that I should have a much clearer head when I make these decisions.

But I do want to say that GJ laws vary from state to state. I was advised that, at least in PA, the extent of what is said outside the courtroom can lead to revoking fifth amendment rights without granting immunity. Which may not mean a lot when all is said and done, but it’s another step to blocking their processes that is taken away.

But, in all honesty, Will, I think I’m having a hard time restraining myself. I know a lot of people talk a mean game, but to be leading the way you are here about your thoughts on what I MAY have done is sickening. I have ALWAYS supported prisoners and anyone undergoing legal battles regardless of our differences. I’ve been public about all of this, I’ve drawn a huge light on what has been going on in Erie, and I will always put myself on the chopping block for what I believe. ALWAYS.
The issues of collapse and attacks on civilization are relevant to the ‘Green Scare’ in every light. Perhaps not being your primary concern should be rethought in light of the fact that you’re making blanket statements for how one should treat a political witch hunt. The two are tied together.
And fucking believe me when I say that I’ve agonized over whether or not to even go. I’ve talked to people who I respect and people who I don’t and weighed it all. Fuck, I’ve been so ready for the possibility of facing time that I had to bring my family into it. I don’t believe in morality. I don’t believe one solution always works outside of NEVER TALK TO FEDS/COPS. But I’ve NEVER judged someone for their decision to either go or not go to the GJ. I trust people will generally make informed decisions if they’ve gone far enough to be public about the whole ordeal and seek support/advice.
I was served the subpoena at my house. I would have been arrested, transported by the Feds to PA, subpoenaed again, and then held or released up there until my next court date, at which point I would have been arrested again for not showing up. My lawyer did not support a full resist and was one of many people pointing out that it probably wouldn’t have changed the outcome. When the time comes to making a forced decision, I’ll do what must be done.
But if you JUDGE ME for what I’ve done, come out and fucking say it. Like any other detractor on the nerd net talking shit, I will fight you on it till I die. Perhaps we should take up the discussion mentioned earlier on the implications of collapse instead of sitting on the internet and puffing chests.
For wildness and anarchy,
KT

]]> By: Will Potter http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/eco-terrorism-grand-jury-witch-hunt-in-pa-and-flashbacks-of-the-red-scare/627/comment-page-1/#comment-171788 Will Potter Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:53:33 +0000 http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/?p=627#comment-171788 I love how they argue the same think about "terrorists" who release mink from fur farms not caring about the well-being of the mink. "Freedom is slavery," comes to mind. I love how they argue the same think about “terrorists” who release mink from fur farms not caring about the well-being of the mink. “Freedom is slavery,” comes to mind.

]]> By: Forager http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/eco-terrorism-grand-jury-witch-hunt-in-pa-and-flashbacks-of-the-red-scare/627/comment-page-1/#comment-171780 Forager Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:55:14 +0000 http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/?p=627#comment-171780 I just noticed and checked out the update, I love how they say: "We've always been curious about how setting heavy equipment and SUVs on fire helps the environment. Do these extremists think about the pollution they release into the atmosphere when they deliberately start a fire? Or the potential environmental impact when gas tanks explode after being torched?" It's the same way that all of those who argue against their actions set up their attack on them; call them terrorists, accuse them of endangering life, and then turn it around on them and accuse them of doing actions destroying the environment. It's a great way to go about it though, just refuse to address the destruction of the natural world that industrialism is doing and instead blame the problem on the people who are actually doing something to stop the ecocide which is threatening to kill off all life. It's pure genius. I just noticed and checked out the update, I love how they say:
“We’ve always been curious about how setting heavy equipment and SUVs on fire helps the environment. Do these extremists think about the pollution they release into the atmosphere when they deliberately start a fire? Or the potential environmental impact when gas tanks explode after being torched?”
It’s the same way that all of those who argue against their actions set up their attack on them; call them terrorists, accuse them of endangering life, and then turn it around on them and accuse them of doing actions destroying the environment. It’s a great way to go about it though, just refuse to address the destruction of the natural world that industrialism is doing and instead blame the problem on the people who are actually doing something to stop the ecocide which is threatening to kill off all life. It’s pure genius.

]]> By: Will Potter http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/eco-terrorism-grand-jury-witch-hunt-in-pa-and-flashbacks-of-the-red-scare/627/comment-page-1/#comment-169895 Will Potter Tue, 16 Sep 2008 13:23:19 +0000 http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/?p=627#comment-169895 Forager: No problem at all, thanks for posting that and I think those are questions that need to be asked. I certainly struggle with it daily, wondering what is the appropriate thing to be doing right now. What do others think? Forager: No problem at all, thanks for posting that and I think those are questions that need to be asked. I certainly struggle with it daily, wondering what is the appropriate thing to be doing right now. What do others think?

]]> By: Forager http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/eco-terrorism-grand-jury-witch-hunt-in-pa-and-flashbacks-of-the-red-scare/627/comment-page-1/#comment-169856 Forager Tue, 16 Sep 2008 03:38:26 +0000 http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/?p=627#comment-169856 Will- It perhaps did come across that way as if I was asking why you didn't ask that, I wasn't directing it towards you as to why you didn't post. I realize that the site isn't anti-civ and assume you aren't either and therefore don't actually expect you to be posting on it anymore than I expect you to be posting whether we need anarchy or not. My comment was generally directed towards those who are in the comment sections as a way to say that we should be questioning that more than the question you left with in my opinion-just my thoughts on things. Will-
It perhaps did come across that way as if I was asking why you didn’t ask that, I wasn’t directing it towards you as to why you didn’t post. I realize that the site isn’t anti-civ and assume you aren’t either and therefore don’t actually expect you to be posting on it anymore than I expect you to be posting whether we need anarchy or not.
My comment was generally directed towards those who are in the comment sections as a way to say that we should be questioning that more than the question you left with in my opinion-just my thoughts on things.

]]> By: y http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/eco-terrorism-grand-jury-witch-hunt-in-pa-and-flashbacks-of-the-red-scare/627/comment-page-1/#comment-169806 y Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:36:53 +0000 http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/?p=627#comment-169806 Knowing how dedicated Kevin Tucker is and also knowing how short the Grand Jury visit was, I am sure that he basically went in to say "fuck you" and left. I'm sure his lawyer advised him that it was better to go in and refuse to say anything than to just refuse to go. Knowing how dedicated Kevin Tucker is and also knowing how short the Grand Jury visit was, I am sure that he basically went in to say “fuck you” and left. I’m sure his lawyer advised him that it was better to go in and refuse to say anything than to just refuse to go.

]]> By: Will Potter http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/eco-terrorism-grand-jury-witch-hunt-in-pa-and-flashbacks-of-the-red-scare/627/comment-page-1/#comment-169795 Will Potter Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:17:29 +0000 http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/?p=627#comment-169795 "Forager": "Instead of asking whether he should have appeared before the Grand Jury or not, we should be discussing the oncoming collapse of civilization and what we are going to do to make it easier." The reason I didn't end with question about something like that it's not the focus of this site. However, I encourage people to use the comments section to talk about anything they choose... Best, Will “Forager”:
“Instead of asking whether he should have appeared before the Grand Jury or not, we should be discussing the oncoming collapse of civilization and what we are going to do to make it easier.”

The reason I didn’t end with question about something like that it’s not the focus of this site. However, I encourage people to use the comments section to talk about anything they choose…
Best,
Will

]]> By: Forager http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/eco-terrorism-grand-jury-witch-hunt-in-pa-and-flashbacks-of-the-red-scare/627/comment-page-1/#comment-169767 Forager Mon, 15 Sep 2008 05:05:40 +0000 http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/?p=627#comment-169767 "So, what’s the problem? These actions were clearly illegal. And the government is simply doing their job by investigating, right?" The governments job is just to dominate over us and continue to reinforce this civilization which is killing the earth. Tucker, Zerzan, Jensen, they are all right, it's obvious that civilization is killing the natural world, we all know it, it just takes people opening their eyes to understand that this system can't be saved and shouldn't be saved. The system will collapse just as the ones in the past did, it will collapse under its own weight, and it is desirable not because those authors say it is, but because they are right in what it will bring and they are right about this system. Instead of asking whether he should have appeared before the Grand Jury or not, we should be discussing the oncoming collapse of civilization and what we are going to do to make it easier. I'd reccomend folks check out the work of these authors as well as the Green Anarchy journal to get a better understanding of it all. “So, what’s the problem? These actions were clearly illegal. And the government is simply doing their job by investigating, right?”
The governments job is just to dominate over us and continue to reinforce this civilization which is killing the earth. Tucker, Zerzan, Jensen, they are all right, it’s obvious that civilization is killing the natural world, we all know it, it just takes people opening their eyes to understand that this system can’t be saved and shouldn’t be saved. The system will collapse just as the ones in the past did, it will collapse under its own weight, and it is desirable not because those authors say it is, but because they are right in what it will bring and they are right about this system.
Instead of asking whether he should have appeared before the Grand Jury or not, we should be discussing the oncoming collapse of civilization and what we are going to do to make it easier. I’d reccomend folks check out the work of these authors as well as the Green Anarchy journal to get a better understanding of it all.

]]> By: Brandon Becker http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/eco-terrorism-grand-jury-witch-hunt-in-pa-and-flashbacks-of-the-red-scare/627/comment-page-1/#comment-169762 Brandon Becker Mon, 15 Sep 2008 03:31:53 +0000 http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/?p=627#comment-169762 Kevin Tucker (and everyone else) should ALWAYS refuse to testify. Refuse to be made a pawn in these unconstitutional Witch Hunts: invoke your Fifth Amendment rights and stay silent, no matter what. I encourage everyone to read this informative article about Grand Juries from the Earth First! Journal: http://www.earthfirstjournal.org/article.php?id=393 Kevin Tucker (and everyone else) should ALWAYS refuse to testify. Refuse to be made a pawn in these unconstitutional Witch Hunts: invoke your Fifth Amendment rights and stay silent, no matter what.

I encourage everyone to read this informative article about Grand Juries from the Earth First! Journal: http://www.earthfirstjournal.org/article.php?id=393

]]>